35 replies to this topic

[The Master]

Well cunts from what I have been reading it looks like Bruce has been caught selling fakes. The cigars I saw this weekend were definitely fake and they supposedly came from Bruce. I really hate seeing this because I always thought Briuce was a stand up guy. I did wonder though when I got back from Cuba in 2000 and saw the scam and I knew Bruce was friends with Berudi if Bruce was systematically robbbing people. I remember seeing DP's in his cigar case at a herf with brand new looking laberls and thinking to myself, this shit looks fake.

His bullshit story about how cigars were stored in air tight conditions doesn't wash because he never even know that existed until years later. So boys should he be put on the scumbag list or what?

Edited by The Master, 14 June 2011 - 04:28 PM.

[moki]

The Master, on 14 June 2011 - 04:26 PM, said:

Well cunts from what I have been reading it looks like Bruce has been caught selling fakes. The cigars I saw this weekend were definitely fake and they supposedly came from Bruce. I really hate seeing this because I always thought Briuce was a stand up guy. I did wonder though when I got back from Cuba in 2000 and saw the scam and I knew Bruce was friends with Berudi if Bruce was systematically robbbing people. I remember seeing DP's in his cigar case at a herf with brand new looking laberls and thinking to myself, this shit looks fake.

His bullshit story about how cigars were stored in air tight conditions doesn't wash because he never even know that existed until years later. So boys should he be put on the scumbag list or what?

I'm certain that many of the cigars in question are fake (see below). The question is whether Bruce knew about them, or was duped himself. Like you, Harris, I've had nothing but good interactions with Bruce over the years... so I'd hate to believe that was the case.

Here's an excerpt of the summary I posted on the ICC thread:

.....

1 - There were only two printings of the Dunhill bands, both of which used the same source design materials. Thus the bands that utilize the wrong font, logo design, and gold powder are suspect

2 - The wrappers on the cigars in question use a hybrid leaf that wasn't in existence at the time that Dunhills were being produced, and thus are suspect

3 - A number of people who have tasted the cigars, including Ajay, mentioned that they tasted "too young" and were not typical Dunhill profile, and thus are suspect

So three pieces of reasonable evidence point to these cigars as not being what they are purported to be. If it was any one thing, perhaps it could be explained away. All three at once, though, seems less likely.

Add in the quantity that these were available in, and the price... and it just seems somewhat implausible.

[TheMuskyDude]

The Master, on 14 June 2011 - 04:26 PM, said:

Well cunts from what I have been reading it looks like Bruce has been caught selling fakes. The cigars I saw this weekend were definitely fake and they supposedly came from Bruce. I really hate seeing this because I always thought Briuce was a stand up guy. I did wonder though when I got back from Cuba in 2000 and saw the scam and I knew Bruce was friends with Berudi if Bruce was systematically robbbing people. I remember seeing DP's in his cigar case at a herf with brand new looking laberls and thinking to myself, this shit looks fake.

His bullshit story about how cigars were stored in air tight conditions doesn't wash because he never even know that existed until years later. So boys should he be put on the scumbag list or what?

I'm just wondering who Berudi is Harris? Is that the guy who's Mr. Sea's friend in SD? The one who sent me fakes when I first got involved in the board in probably late 97? I've known Bruce since then and hate to think he'd knowingly sell fakes. Could he have been duped, sure but if he's dealing with that guy Bruce certainly let his guard down. But I know he's buddies with Jon & Jon likes Frank in fact I met the dude @ Jons house years ago. So maybe Bruce got involved with him if its the same guy. Just don't know his last name, he was all apologetic but Bruce was one of the guys I showed the stuff that I thought were fakes and he confirmed.
In fact that was my first set of trades on CF, got fakes... LOL But Maria was #1 and she was a better experience.

Edited by TheMuskyDude, 14 June 2011 - 05:05 PM.

[AnacostiaKat]

This is a pretty unbelievable story any way you look at it. Very difficult, given the numbers and the amounts to explain this away.

[TheMuskyDude]

moki, on 14 June 2011 - 04:35 PM, said:

I'm certain that many of the cigars in question are fake (see below). The question is whether Bruce knew about them, or was duped himself. Like you, Harris, I've had nothing but good interactions with Bruce over the years... so I'd hate to believe that was the case.

Here's an excerpt of the summary I posted on the ICC thread:

.....

1 - There were only two printings of the Dunhill bands, both of which used the same source design materials. Thus the bands that utilize the wrong font, logo design, and gold powder are suspect

2 - The wrappers on the cigars in question use a hybrid leaf that wasn't in existence at the time that Dunhills were being produced, and thus are suspect

3 - A number of people who have tasted the cigars, including Ajay, mentioned that they tasted "too young" and were not typical Dunhill profile, and thus are suspect

So three pieces of reasonable evidence point to these cigars as not being what they are purported to be. If it was any one thing, perhaps it could be explained away. All three at once, though, seems less likely.

Add in the quantity that these were available in, and the price... and it just seems somewhat implausible.

And I don't know where you got the info on the bands but if they were printed in Cuba I wouldn't put a ton of confidence in that. Also wondering who is Ajay? I really don't frequent the other boards, or CF that much.

Now the wrapper is a whole other issue. I read the whole thread on ICC and while I think some of that post about the wrapper was a bit off, it doesn't change the fact that if they are the newer hybrid wrappers with tooth they shouldn't be on Dunhills. Old corojo had no real "tooth". All wrappers didn't have the white knots IMO like the Davis in the picture, in fact I really only remember seeing it so obviously on the old Davidoffs. I have some early 80's Monte 2's that don't have that. (no they didn't come from Bruce lol)

When I talked to Harris one of the first things I said was you can tell an old cigar. Are we talking these are recent rolls, or aged stuff that's been rebanded and sold as something it isn't. In your opinion?

AnacostiaKat, on 14 June 2011 - 04:54 PM, said:

This is a pretty unbelievable story any way you look at it. Very difficult, given the numbers and the amounts to explain this away.

Agreed, I take it we aren't talking about a box or 2 of cigars here? I mean you don't even see them in large quantities on Christies.

[moki]

TheMuskyDude, on 14 June 2011 - 05:01 PM, said:

Agreed, I take it we aren't talking about a box or 2 of cigars here? I mean you don't even see them in large quantities on Christies.

More than a box or two of cigars... but never in boxes, always loose. The explanation was that they were stored in vacuum-sealed bags.

[insight]

Approaching thousands of cigars, all in singles/five packs/bundles. Dunhill cabs sold/transported in wheels. TMD: Beroudi or whatever is MrSea's buddy you were referencing.

Harris, the only reason I have for not adding him at this point is logistical and you know my rationale. Also there is the secondary question of how to treat the guys he duped that in turn resold or brokered deals. Do I add them all? I think a different convo can be had about adding ChiBnkr, after seeing the totally bogus HTF cigars he sent out which may or may not be linked to Bruce. They can really be treated as two separate issues, we can talk later tonight.

[TheMuskyDude]

insight, on 14 June 2011 - 05:39 PM, said:

Approaching thousands of cigars, all in singles/five packs/bundles. Dunhill cabs sold/transported in wheels. TMD: Beroudi or whatever is MrSea's buddy you were referencing.

Well he's a pretty shady character IMO. So if you know for certain he's involved it likely removes all doubt. I'd hate to think Bruce would be getting thousands of these super rare cigars from that guy.

Edited by TheMuskyDude, 14 June 2011 - 06:07 PM.

[moki]

Reposting this here for people who don't have accounts on ICC... the differences in the typeface and logos can't by explained by poor printing in Cuba, it's a result of different source materials.

.....


Questionable Mojito is on the left. In the middle is an authentic Estupendo. On the right is an authentic Mojito.

That's why the photos are side by side, to ensure consistent light sources.

The photographs were not retouched with Photoshop.

Here's an additional photo, from left to right: T,M?M?M?E,M.jpg

#1 - authentic Tubo
#2 - questionable Mojito
#3 - questionable Mojito
#4 - questionable Mojito
#5 - authentic Estupendo
#6 - authentic Mojito



I superimposed the "Dunhill" lettering from the authentic Mojito on top, and the lettering from the authentic Estupendo on the bottom.

There is some difference in appearance between the two authentic "Dunhill" letterings, but that's due to the curvature of the band as you can see from the photo.

The difference between the font used for these two bands, and the font used for the questionable Mojito on the left is readily apparent, and rather stark. It is not due to the curvature of the band, because you can see the band from the authentic Mojito has the same curvature.



Authentic Tubo is on the left. In the middle is a questionable Mojito. On the right is another questionable Mojito.

Note the direction of the arrows (you might have to click here to see the large version of the image), the semi-circle logo terminates on either side straight up and down in the authentic Tubo, and is at an angle in both of the questionable Mojitos.

I did apply a sharpen filter to this image to help make the edges more apparent, but it is otherwise unaltered.

[moki]

Some more closeup pictures of the bands:

[TheMuskyDude]

Ok so the confusing part on the first pic is R to L? So #1 is the cigar on the right, and 6 is the one on the left? Or is it L to R?

[moki]

TheMuskyDude, on 14 June 2011 - 07:09 PM, said:

Ok so the confusing part on the first pic is R to L? So #1 is the cigar on the right, and 6 is the one on the left? Or is it L to R?

Left to right. Sorry if it's confusing, I basically just took a number of posts/pictures, and mashed them together.

Cigars 2, 3, & 4 in the first picture are the "questionable" ones.

[TheMuskyDude]

moki, on 14 June 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

Left to right. Sorry if it's confusing, I basically just took a number of posts/pictures, and mashed them together.

Cigars 2, 3, & 4 in the first picture are the "questionable" ones.

Ok that makes more sense to me. Visually 2 & 3 just look bad, not even taking the lines on the band into account. 4 you can visually see the Dunhill looks to be different type and/or font. Although #4's wrapper doesn't look bad, 2 & 3 are just plain ugly. #5 the gold just "bled"?

The 3 that are known to be authentic came from Dunhill, Gerards, or somewhere impeccable source I assume?

[moki]

TheMuskyDude, on 14 June 2011 - 07:30 PM, said:

Ok that makes more sense to me. Visually 2 & 3 just look bad, not even taking the lines on the band into account. 4 you can visually see the Dunhill looks to be different type and/or font. Although #4's wrapper doesn't look bad, 2 & 3 are just plain ugly. #5 the gold just "bled"?

The 3 that are known to be authentic came from Dunhill, Gerards, or somewhere impeccable source I assume?

Correct. I'll repost some other info and pics as soon as I have them... apparently some pictures were removed from ICC for some inexplicable reason.

[moki]

Today 09:48 AM #434
BonVivant

Re: Davidoff & Dunhill Cigar Issue
Gentlemen,

The following is a collective statement of facts, generously provided by most respected experts in tobacco business for the last thirty years, as well as world authorities on tobacco growing history in Cuba. As further investigation is presently underway concerning this issue for wider publication, the sources will remain unnamed at this time. The only purpose of this statement is to provide unbiased analysis, which could only be done outside of this forum.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________

Corojo leaf was the staple wrapper leaf from the 1980s for many high-end cigars, and was the only decade in which Dunhill cigars were made. According to sources in Cubatabaco, Dunhills were made using solely the wrapper commonly known as Corojo (or more specifically 3 farms in Vuelta Abajo growing El Corojo and Saint Luis leaf), which are identical in all relevant ways for the purposes of this analysis.

Corojo was replaced with a hybrid of Corojo and cigarette tobacco starting around in 1995. The modern strains of tobacco, hereafter referred to as hybrid, is the tobacco presently used. Hybrid refers to a cross breeding of corojo with resistant non cigar tobaccos, less sensitive to blue mold and black shank, which precipitated the end of Corojo's use in Cuba in the late 90s.

Simply, to identify the most obvious physical markers of Corojo that distinguish it from hybrid tobacco, one can look to at least 3 markers.

First, the texture and placement of the large vein in the leaf. For example, below is a box of Davidoff 3000 from the 80s. Note that the large vein in the leaf is a pronounced vertical knotted vein, bordered in white and seemingly sitting on top of the leaf, rather than buried within.



Second, notice that the leaf is otherwise free of pronounced capillaries, those existing being very tight, small, closed, and beneath the leaf.

Third, a feature difficult to communicate through photography is the silkiness and thinness of the wrapper.


The distinctions marking the differences between corojo leaf and hybrid leaf become plainer when closely examining hybrid, as are the wrappers on the cigars in question.

In hybrid tobacco, (i) the large vein is smoother, not knotted, bordered in dark color, not white, (ii) is not smooth in the structure of the veins, but rather features the spider webbed open veins, and (iii) has a toothy, textured, and thick wrapper, not silk.


The cigars in question.

(1) Darkened, unknotted large vein.


(2) Large open capillaries in the leaf, resembling a spider web, permeating the wrapper.



(3) Tooth. A rougher thicker surface that would protect the tobacco from the infestation.


Leaving aside tobacco for a moment, sources also confirmed that there were only two printings of these bands and at no time was the design or materials used changed.
Each and every Dunhill bearing consistent bands from intact boxes with the glittery gold show the signs of Corojo. Protruding knotted vein, no capillaries or closed tight capillaries under the surface of the leaf, and a silky smooth wrapper free of gritty tooth.

Last edited by BonVivant; Today at 10:06 AM.

[moki]

I went into the whole situation with the following mindset: It's Bruce, these cigars cannot be fake. I said as much in my initial correspondence with the folks involved.

That was my bias, having known and dealt with Bruce (sporadically, granted) for years.

That said, after everything I've heard and seen, I have very, very little doubt that the cigars in question are indeed fake.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Bruce knows or thinks the cigars are fake, btw. Just that I feel based on the information I have that they are.

I realize not releasing the names of the experts has rankled some. It's not my place to state who they are, and indeed, even if names were named, people who want to doubt would inevitably doubt those experts were actually contacted.

Any one thing can be dismissed as a bad cigar or whatever, but all of them together adds up to something else entirely.

-- Bands have the wrong font, logo, color, and gold, and there were only 2 print runs of the bands, both of which used the exact same design materials

-- Ajay, GTS, and others stating the cigars did not taste right and "too young"

-- An inordinate number of Dunhills & Davidoffs being sold over the years, often at well below market prices

-- No boxes for the cigars, explanation being that they are vacuum sealed (why not vacuum sealed in the box?)

-- Analysis of the wrapper that shows clear differences between the type of tobacco used for the wrapper

Any one of these things, I could explain away as variance. The probability of all of them happening simultaneously with the same cigars is infinitesimally small.

Anyway, I don't expect to convince anyone who remains skeptical with the above; rather just explain my reasoning. I do fully expect that sometime in the near future, people are likely to be less skeptical.

[The Master]

Vince, Berudi is Mr Sea's friend in SD and he did sell fakes years ago to you. He is the main importer for all the fake high end shit coming out of Cuba from Menedez kid. He sells mostly to the fucking morons in Vegas and has a huge business. When I figured out the scam in 2000 I new Bruce had done a lot of business with him and all of those DP
s Bruce was getting all of a sudden I am pretty sure came from Berudi. I wanted to call him out years ago but honestly I did not have the proof and Bruce's minions would have lined up to defend him, so I had to let it go( I did tell all the guys I hung with my suspicions and they stayed away pretty much) . My gut tells me Bruce knows he was selling fakes and I know he needed money back then because he had his ass handed to him in the stock market. He and Ypeter were definitely in cahoots together back then and their reps were beyond reproach.

This latest episode I think is a continuation of the scam he started way back then. I think Bruce has always had a taste for the good life that he could never afford on his physical therapist salary. I think he was never duped and that he has known all along he has been selling fakes.

[TheMuskyDude]

See thats the connection I don't get Harris. First time I met those guys around 9/97 I had made a trade with that guy and thought the cigars were suspect I always had purchased from reputable stores and that was my first trade. They laughed at them, and Bruce had a real BBF that we used for comparison. They then knew he was a con man, so if Bruce was dealing with him I'd have to agree.

I just wonder how your making that connection between Bruce and Frank B, I never even heard him mentioned over the years. Maybe for a good reason, but he was never mentioned. But if thats a "source" of cigars over the years thats not a good thing.

[Tone-NY]

Now there is more clarity in the situation than before. Harris has bought additional information to add to the actual cigars/bands/storage issues. I'm sure there will continue to be nay sayers after all this information.

[insight]

The question is one of confirming the link to Beroudi imo.

[TheMuskyDude]

Tone-NY, on 15 June 2011 - 08:32 AM, said:

Now there is more clarity in the situation than before. Harris has bought additional information to add to the actual cigars/bands/storage issues. I'm sure there will continue to be nay sayers after all this information.

I'm sure there still will be, not I. I'd certainly stay away from the stuff. Although I'd certainly not profess to knowing what long term airtight storage (aka MRN method) would do to the bands, theoretically a lack of oxygen and light would prevent yellowing. But thats just too convienient when added into all the other issues.

It's the bands on the Dunhills that obviously aren't right, some of those suspect sticks just flat out look horrible and the volume of cigars that don't make sense.

If I was sitting on a pristine pile of legit Dunhills in boxes that could be certified they'd be on Christies up for auction plain and simple. The whole issue with TL is the same here. Can't believe the diplomatic courier is in play on this too. While certainly that would be a great way to get cigars in if you knew one, that doesn't mean this courier would be the "source".

Seriously the only person I personally know of who could have thousands and thousands of these types of cigars (and are legitimate) would be Vahe Gerard, his warehouse is huge and his family has been in business forever. I'm sure there are others but they ain't letting them go for a song. They'll get FMV and then some, more likely they go to Christies.

[Tone-NY]

TheMuskyDude, on 15 June 2011 - 11:17 AM, said:

I'm sure there still will be, not I. I'd certainly stay away from the stuff. Although I'd certainly not profess to knowing what long term airtight storage (aka MRN method) would do to the bands, theoretically a lack of oxygen and light would prevent yellowing. But thats just too convienient when added into all the other issues.

It's the bands on the Dunhills that obviously aren't right, some of those suspect sticks just flat out look horrible and the volume of cigars that don't make sense.

If I was sitting on a pristine pile of legit Dunhills in boxes that could be certified they'd be on Christies up for auction plain and simple. The whole issue with TL is the same here. Can't believe the diplomatic courier is in play on this too. While certainly that would be a great way to get cigars in if you knew one, that doesn't mean this courier would be the "source".

Seriously the only person I personally know of who could have thousands and thousands of these types of cigars (and are legitimate) would be Vahe Gerard, his warehouse is huge and his family has been in business forever. I'm sure there are others but they ain't letting them go for a song. They'll get FMV and then some, more likely they go to Christies.

JJ Fox and a few other of the European shops would have some as well as Dunhill themselves. Christies does have some in auction, but they are becoming rarer and rarer.

[TheMuskyDude]

Tone-NY, on 15 June 2011 - 11:42 AM, said:

JJ Fox and a few other of the European shops would have some as well as Dunhill themselves. Christies does have some in auction, but they are becoming rarer and rarer.

Certainly, I meant personally. Never really dealt with the others because of UK taxes. I remember getting a CD years back with video of Gerards controlled warehouse, it was massive with stuff stacked to the ceiling, rows and rows of cigars. They were panning down an aisle and it appeared they had 500+ boxes of just SD4's and stacked deep. Talk about a place I'd love to go see and get a tour. Amazing. But I haven't ordered from there in 10+ years, I'm sure he wouldn't even take my calls anymore. LOL

And I'm sure there are collectors out there that had the $$$ and sense to buy a lot of them, but that's where it gets things get dicey. Hell I remember when 1994's were around 40-50 a stick which I thought was insane, now I wish I'd have stocked up or at least saved a bunch. Better than investing in the market.

[moki]

Tone-NY, on 15 June 2011 - 11:42 AM, said:

JJ Fox and a few other of the European shops would have some as well as Dunhill themselves. Christies does have some in auction, but they are becoming rarer and rarer.

Christies stopped auctioning tobacco products in 2008, I believe?

[The Master]

Vince, the connection between Berudi and Bruce is fuzzy for me. I don't remember exactly how we made the connection but it was either from Menendez kid who mentioned Bruce or it was at CFC 2000 when Berudi and Bruce were together at the event. It could have also been at the summit in 2000 in SF. I think both Berudi and Bruce were both there. I do know that we made the connection and were surprised to learn of it. The more I think about it the more I think George had something to do with it, because he and Berudi did a ton of business together. I will ask George if he remembers anything.

[The Master]

Gerard always had the goods. I remember loading up on 93 Boli Lonsdales, 94 Quai D'Orsay grand coronas from 94 and QDO panatellas from 92 I think. His prices are ok it is his fucking shipping charges that are obscene. You had to order 4 boxes to offset the shipping which was like 75 bucks.

[insight]

next time you sell all your early 90s QdO and bolis send me a PM =D

[hababa]

Bruce? Wow, I'm surprised.

[MU Mike]

I think I know the answer to this, but is this the same "Bruce" from CF that I met at the MAD herf in Chicago? Why did he leave CF so long ago?

Such a twisted state of affairs. It has been an interesting and educational tale.

[insight]

Given that these have been circulated here and elsewhere I am going to cross post this information. It has been determined that Bruce Taira (Bruce) has circulated a vast amount of fake vintage cigars, namely Dunhills and Davidoffs, over the course of many years. It is unclear whether he did it knowingly or unknowingly, but his response has been to deny they are counterfeit. He has been added to the scumbag list and any dunhills or davidoffs purchased from him should be considered suspect. We know he also has had plenty of legitimate product over the years but that is irrelevant to this issue. It is a very unfortunate circumstance but one that needs to be put in the open. Related to this situation, ChiBnkr has also been added to the list for circulating significant amounts of counterfeit vintage/rare cigars including 1492s, 1994s, Partagas 150s, Dunhills and Davidoffs. If you think your stock may be affected please read the links below, there is some good information on tell-tale signs to look for.

There is still work underway and I cannot and will not provide more detail on that. There may also be more names added to the list, and there will definitely be detailed entry pages with archived information for any entries that are made. The discussions thus far are linked below:

http://www.internati...ill-Cigar-Issue
http://www.havanaboa...ead...continued
http://www.internati...ghlight=ChiBnkr
http://www.gartrader...bruce-be-fried/
http://www.cigarpass...opic=54147&st=0
http://www.cigarpass...opic=69402&st=0

Edited by insight, 19 June 2011 - 01:30 AM.

[simmich]

MU Mike, on 16 June 2011 - 08:49 PM, said:

I think I know the answer to this, but is this the same "Bruce" from CF that I met at the MAD herf in Chicago? Why did he leave CF so long ago?

Ya Mike, one and the same.

[Pete]

Anyone else remember the story about Bruce giving EZdad his first 'real' cuban cigar? Ez called it a fake. Maybe he was wise beyond his experience.... lmfao!!

[TheMuskyDude]

Pete, on 21 June 2011 - 04:25 PM, said:

Anyone else remember the story about Bruce giving EZdad his first 'real' cuban cigar? Ez called it a fake. Maybe he was wise beyond his experience.... lmfao!!

Lets not get carried away here..... LMAO

[moki]

Questions I put to Bruce over on ICC (below is a post of his from a few weeks ago concerning the issue):

Quote

I could have just buried my head in the sand with this issue. I am a member here and have been an active participant. I chose to post what I did out of respect to the members here knowing all too well that this and these comments will follow.
I have nothing to hide and will not run away. Yet I will not sit in front of the court of the inqusition with this matter. What transpired on another board is a matter of unfortunate timing that it coincides with this matter.

Eric posted that he had compared my Mojitos with a box that he obtained elsewhere. The results were that they were similar, yet this was overlooked. The Cabinettas that he smoked were bad. I too have smoked some of my Cabinettas and tossed them because they tasted like shit. This happens, with every line, vintage and limited production also.

Over the years, I have had many aficionados ask me to try a certain cigar to ascertain the authencity. I have always refused. Why? Because I will not ruin a persons reputation over a bad cigar experience. There are so many variables that come into play....the cigar in question being bad or off, one's palate.....what one ate, smoked, or even what medication they may be taking. This is the reason why I will not evaluate cigars....when one's reputation is at stake.

There's really nothing I can add here. With the tone and attitude, I am already branded as peddling fakes. No matter what "evidence" I bring to this thread will make a difference. Those that have accused me have already made up their minds.
I can tell you that I have only return Davidoffs once in the past 15 years. A guy said they were fake beacuse of the bands were off. I sent his money back after he sent me the ciagrs back. Some heated exchanges took place as I was insulted. In retrospect, I should have not made the comments I made to him, but that's in the past. Also, in meeting guys face to face at herfs, not one person has/had confronted me face to face. Wish this whole matter can be discussed as men face to face as opposed to behind a keyboard.
There have been instances on this board members inquiring about purchasing some cigars from me. After many questions about provenance, I actually discourage the purchase as if you don't trust the person you are dealing with, then the cigars will always be in question.

In the end, all I have to go on is my word and reputation.......what's left of it. Some of you guys have done a pretty good job with that issue.

Quoting the above post, because to be fair to Bruce, he did respond in this thread (ChiBnkr has not, to my knowledge, ever addressed the issue in public). My questions for him would be:

-- What is the explanation for the band discrepancies that been been noted, with no record anywhere of Dunhill having ever changed the band source materials, and it not possibly being a print error (wrong font, different logo, etc.)?

-- What is the explanation for the wrapper discrepancies that have been noted, Corojo vs. hybrid?

-- Are you the one who stored these cigars for years in a "low airflow" environment, or did someone else tell you that's where he stored them?

-- Why were the cigars offered at below market prices?

-- Why were such a large quantity of these cigars available for purchase, given that only rarely were sold via Christies or other vendors, in small quantities?

-- Why were the cigars never in boxes? Couldn't the entire box have been stored in a sealed, low air flow environment?

-- Why were the bands seemingly pristine, with no discoloration on the inside white portions of the bands from time and/or contact with the cigar over the span of the last 30 years?

I'd like to hear reasonable explanations for these points (others may raise more), none of which should require outing any sources, or discussing the diplomatic courier that brought them into the country, etc.

Note that I didn't address anything regarding the cigars "tasting bad" or not "tasting like they should" because I agree it's subjective.

Note also that I have not and am not maligning Bruce's character, because while I believe with a high degree of certainty that these cigars are bogus, that doesn't necessarily imply that Bruce knew about it.

But it would be helpful to all parties involved if these questions were addressed.

EDIT to add:

-- If you truly believe that these cigars are legitimate for whatever reason, will you offer refunds for cigars returned to you in pristine condition? If not, why not? If they are real, they still have value.

[Nimrod]

icehog3 just won the debate.

Article: Godwin's Law

http://www.internati...ll=1#post346360

"suppose we learned some findings from experts on the subject of racial equality. Then later we found that the experts were headed by Adolph Hitler. Who the expert(s) is/are does matter, IMHO."

experts == Aldoph Hitler.

debate is now over.

[moki]

It's pretty amazing how often Godwin's law crops up in the most unlikely of debates... heh