38 replies to this topic

[HolyLance]

This is the result of a broken campaign promise by the Obama white house. It does put police officers in a tough spot, but I guess Arizona has had it with undocumented criminals in their community. Simply by being here undocumented makes them criminals.

[Max Power]

HolyLance, on 30 April 2010 - 12:27 PM, said:

This is the result of a broken campaign promise by the Obama white house. It does put police officers in a tough spot, but I guess Arizona has had it with undocumented criminals in their community. Simply by being here undocumented makes them criminals.

It is the result of a broken campaign promise by every president since Reagan.

[griz]

It must be a great law because "everybody" is pissed off and threatened by it.

Way to go Arizona!

[Edman]

HolyLance, on 30 April 2010 - 12:27 PM, said:

Simply by being here undocumented makes them criminals.

Pretty much. Try and enter any other country in the world without going through a proper check point and see what happens to you when you are caught. Try and get employment in that country too and see what happens when you are caught.

If someone sets up camp in your backyard without your permission what would you do?

How many criminals or those with criminal intent are undocumented?

Edited by Edman, 30 April 2010 - 04:59 PM.

[ChiTown_Huck]

If they want to get serious about this, I think it would be better and more efficiently handled by making a visit to the businesses that utilize undocumented laborers in order to have cheap costs. They would all be in one place, and the resulting fines for the employers would cut off the flow of payment that the workers seek. An alternative would be to make the employers pay taxes on their workers, make the workers pay taxes, and then they would be part of the system. Let them earn their way into the country and contribute. Shaking people down based upon their looks does fly in the face of what this country is supposed to be about.

[Rooster]

Having it fester until it erupts into shaking people down based solely upon their looks does fly in the face of what this country is supposed to be about.

[Bsneed51]

How about INS shows up at a few of these protest rallies, and starts checking a few IDs. I mean seriously, if the illegals are all going to congregate in one place, the least we could do is take advantage.

[griz]

>>>>>>This is the result of a broken campaign promise by the Obama white house.
>>>It is the result of a broken campaign promise by every president since Reagan.

Don't ask, don't tell just give 'em a wink and go straight to hell.

No matter how daunting the task, the proper course of action is:

• Huge fines AND significant jail time for the entire management hierarchy employing illegal aliens as of XX/XX/XXXX month/day/year
  
• Mandatory execution of all illegals involved in violent felony crime on conviction - no appeals (not citizens-not entitled to a citizens due process)
  
• Deport without prejudice all illegals within 24 hours of discovery
  
• Provide a reasonably expedient and affordable path to immigration with a demonstration of basic English competence
  
• Provide worker visas to qualified applicants
  
• No health & welfare benefits to legal immigrants
  
• Declare English the national language, support for additional languages at the grace of taxpayers, English the only language of the federal government
  
• ...and many, many more

It is terrible this problem has gone unresolved for so long that it will tear apart families; you'd have to be a cold-hearted motherfucker not to feel for them; so be it.

[Max Power]

griz, on 02 May 2010 - 11:19 AM, said:

>>>>>>This is the result of a broken campaign promise by the Obama white house.
>>>It is the result of a broken campaign promise by every president since Reagan.

Don't ask, don't tell just give 'em a wink and go straight to hell.

No matter how daunting the task, the proper course of action is:

• Huge fines AND significant jail time for the entire management hierarchy employing illegal aliens as of XX/XX/XXXX month/day/year
• Mandatory execution of all illegals involved in violent felony crime on conviction - no appeals (not citizens-not entitled to a citizens due process)
• Deport without prejudice all illegals within 24 hours of discovery
• Provide a reasonably expedient and affordable path to immigration with a demonstration of basic English competence
• Provide worker visas to qualified applicants
• No health & welfare benefits to legal immigrants
• Declare English the national language, support for additional languages at the grace of taxpayers, English the only language of the federal government
• ...and many, many more

It is terrible this problem has gone unresolved for so long that it will tear apart families; you'd have to be a cold-hearted motherfucker not to feel for them; so be it.

I agree with all except executing someone for getting in a bar fight. A violent felony is not that difficult to acquire.

[Prizetek]

ChiTown_Huck, on 30 April 2010 - 06:10 PM, said:

An alternative would be to make the employers pay taxes on their workers, make the workers pay taxes, and then they would be part of the system. Let them earn their way into the country and contribute.

What about the 17% of Americans who cannot find decent jobs now???

How about Mexico takes care of its own, and we take care of Americans first? What a crazy idea!

When every American who wants a job has one, then maybe we can start bringing in poor Mexicans.

ChiTown_Huck, on 30 April 2010 - 06:10 PM, said:

Shaking people down based upon their looks does fly in the face of what this country is supposed to be about.

The Azizona law does not do that. In fact, it forbids it.

You might know that if you read the law instead of just believing everything you see on the network news, CNN, newspapers, etc.

[Prizetek]

Max Power, on 03 May 2010 - 09:35 AM, said:

I agree with all except executing someone for getting in a bar fight. A violent felony is not that difficult to acquire.

And I agree with you! LOL.

BTW, alien residents in the US are absolutely entitled to Due Process. And this is not exactly a new idea . .

In Wong Wing v. U S, 163 U.S. 228 (1896), the Supreme Court stated:

“The fourteenth amendment to the constitution is not confined to the protection of citizens. It says: 'Nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law.' These provisions are universal in their application to all persons within the territorial jurisdiction, without regard to any differences of race, of color, or nationality; and the equal protection of the laws is a pledge of the protection of equal laws.' Applying this reasoning to the fifth and sixth amendments, it must be concluded that all persons within the territory of the United States are entitled to the protection guarantied by those amendments, and that even aliens shall not be held to answer for a capital or other infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. “

[reflex]

According to AP News:
"An estimated 100,000 illegal immigrants have left Arizona in the past two years as it cracked down on illegal immigration and its economy was especially hard hit by the Great Recession. A Department of Homeland Security report on illegal immigrants estimates Arizona's illegal immigrant population peaked in 2008 at 560,000, and a year later dipped to 460,000."

So I think all Arizona wants is for the illegals to leave.

Complete story AP News

[Edman]

reflex, on 04 May 2010 - 10:21 AM, said:

So I think all Arizona wants is for the illegals to leave.

Partly , but they also want to be able to do something about traffickers of people and drugs too. I think the violent crimes and such was the real driver with their action.

Just like NY, and many other cities in the US, wanting the homeless to leave. And even here in the Springs, they passed a no camping ordnance on public land within the city to get the homeless to leave. But they have programs to help those who want to get back on their feet too.

[Prizetek]

Edman, on 04 May 2010 - 01:06 PM, said:

Just like NY, and many other cities in the US, wanting the homeless to leave.

I think there is a huge difference.

Illegal Mexicans have a place to go where it is legal and proper for them to be. Mexico. Just go home.

If you boot a homeless family of Americans from your town, what the fuck do you expect them to do? Die?

BTW, a large percentage of homeless are former veterans. Nice policy to toss these guys out of town into God knows where (likely the next town over, where the folks there do the same . . . etc.). Some folks need to watch "First Blood."

[reflex]

Here is the biggest problem. Last night on the radio they were interviewing a woman that was illegal, had been here 15 years and could not speak English, her husband was illegal and no habla, both were unemployed and here is the topper! That had 10 kids that were US citizens. But the plus side for AZ was they were leaving to Colorado due to the law.
They then interviewed their landlord and he was complaining that he was a US citizen and due to this law he had 7 of his rental properties vacant.

Oh and by the way I don't think any town would through out Sylvester Stallone

[Prizetek]

reflex, on 04 May 2010 - 04:28 PM, said:

Here is the biggest problem. Last night on the radio they were interviewing a woman that was illegal, had been here 15 years and could not speak English, her husband was illegal and no habla, both were unemployed and here is the topper! That had 10 kids that were US citizens. But the plus side for AZ was they were leaving to Colorado due to the law.
They then interviewed their landlord and he was complaining that he was a US citizen and due to this law he had 7 of his rental properties vacant.

My wife and I saw the same story last night on the network news (ABC or CBS - can't remember which) and had the same reactions. My head almost exploded when they said that unemployed no-English-speaking POS has TEN CHILDREN!!! WTF???
And meanwhile I am working hard and paying taxes so she and her unemployed POS illegal alien husband can breed like wild rabbits.

And that POS slumlord . . . screw that asshole.

WE ARE ALL DOOMED!!!

[Edman]

Prizetek, on 04 May 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

I think there is a huge difference.

Illegal Mexicans have a place to go where it is legal and proper for them to be. Mexico. Just go home.

If you boot a homeless family of Americans from your town, what the fuck do you expect them to do? Die?

BTW, a large percentage of homeless are former veterans. Nice policy to toss these guys out of town into God knows where (likely the next town over, where the folks there do the same . . . etc.). Some folks need to watch "First Blood."

There are numerous programs out there to help the homeless get back on their feet and even a few more programs if you are a veteran. It's not like there is nothing for them. There are quite a few of homeless who prefer to be homeless. That was one of the main problems here. You can't force a person to get help if they don't want too.

Our church as well as a lot of others in the community have some great programs for helping the homeless get back on their feet. They put them up and parishioners supply hot meals, child care, laundry service, and even nice clothing to wear to interviews.

[jfields]

I'm really offended by Obama playing the race card on this one. What about enforcing the law of the land? Isn't that what he's sworn to do?

With all of the boycott talks of Arizona businesses I found this to be pretty funny.

[reflex]

LMFAO That is so true.

[strayvector]

All this outcry against Arizona is idiotic. The rest of the country have no idea as to the tax burden that we in Arizona have to bear because of illegal aliens.

There used to be 4 trauma centers here in Tucson. Three have closed down because they just can't afford to be open anymore and the last one is part of a University teaching hospital. Too many illegals being brought in without insurance. No penalty against them so after they get all better they just get deported without any repercussion to them. The accidents they were in? No insurance, so the insurance companies have to pick up the tab and Arizona residents end up paying more for insurance coverage. Then you add the huge numbers that come into the emergency room and leave the country once they have been treated and it becomes evident why our hospitals are losing money.

Another huge tax liability that border states have to put up with are the large number of pregnant women coming across the border to have their kids. They go into emergency rooms, have their kids, kids are citizens, they then go back to Mexico (never paying their hospital bill) and when the kids are school age, they send them across the border to go to school. They have never contributed to the Arizona economy, never paid taxes, but they certainly take advantage of our social programs. My friend is a US Customs agent and every morning he witnesses the huge number of children crossing the border to go to school then go back after school is finished.

Calderon is wailing against this law, but until he agrees to pay Arizona for the hospital bills, incarceration fees, and other liabilities that his citizens incur here and skip out on, he needs to just STFU. His country certainly does not treat Americans the same way. If you go to Mexico, you better have insurance or as US Customs will tell you, the Mexican cops will just drive you to the border and drop you off no matter how injured you are. If you're in the hospital and can't pay, they put you in detention until a relative can come and pay your bill. Get caught on Mexican roads without Mexican auto insurance? Don't even think about it.

[Prizetek]

strayvector, on 06 May 2010 - 10:01 AM, said:

All this outcry against Arizona is idiotic. The rest of the country have no idea as to the tax burden that we in Arizona have to bear because of illegal aliens.

There used to be 4 trauma centers here in Tucson. Three have closed down because they just can't afford to be open anymore and the last one is part of a University teaching hospital. Too many illegals being brought in without insurance. No penalty against them so after they get all better they just get deported without any repercussion to them. The accidents they were in? No insurance, so the insurance companies have to pick up the tab and Arizona residents end up paying more for insurance coverage. Then you add the huge numbers that come into the emergency room and leave the country once they have been treated and it becomes evident why our hospitals are losing money.

Another huge tax liability that border states have to put up with are the large number of pregnant women coming across the border to have their kids. They go into emergency rooms, have their kids, kids are citizens, they then go back to Mexico (never paying their hospital bill) and when the kids are school age, they send them across the border to go to school. They have never contributed to the Arizona economy, never paid taxes, but they certainly take advantage of our social programs. My friend is a US Customs agent and every morning he witnesses the huge number of children crossing the border to go to school then go back after school is finished.

Calderon is wailing against this law, but until he agrees to pay Arizona for the hospital bills, incarceration fees, and other liabilities that his citizens incur here and skip out on, he needs to just STFU. His country certainly does not treat Americans the same way. If you go to Mexico, you better have insurance or as US Customs will tell you, the Mexican cops will just drive you to the border and drop you off no matter how injured you are. If you're in the hospital and can't pay, they put you in detention until a relative can come and pay your bill. Get caught on Mexican roads without Mexican auto insurance? Don't even think about it.

Great Post!

[ChiTown_Huck]

Prizetek, on 03 May 2010 - 01:41 PM, said:

What about the 17% of Americans who cannot find decent jobs now???

How about Mexico takes care of its own, and we take care of Americans first? What a crazy idea!

When every American who wants a job has one, then maybe we can start bringing in poor Mexicans.



The Azizona law does not do that. In fact, it forbids it.

You might know that if you read the law instead of just believing everything you see on the network news, CNN, newspapers, etc.

I'll speak from what I know up here in Chicago. Now I don't know what jobs Mexicans are taking away from good hard working Americans in your city, but here there are not a bunch of Americans lining up to mow lawns or work at McDonalds around here. Those jobs do not pay enough and are beneath most Americans. Hell, those jobs are beneath most teenagers around here.

I work with a lot of contractors, and the majority of the crews have become Mexican crews. I assume they are legal; however, who knows. That being said, the Mexicans I have worked with are hard working, family oriented people, and they do jobs that no white man would do, at least without complaining a ton about having to do it. I have watched these guys wash out concrete pump pipes in the middle of winter without complaint. Chip out more concrete without question. I promise you there are not taking away jobs from Americans. In general, they are doing the lowest tiered jobs for the lowest wages, and the corporations don't mind it. In my opinion you do not deserve a job just because you are indigenous. Those who want to work will find a job to do, even if they think it is beneath them...at least that is what I would do to feed my family.

No I didn't read the law. I was more responding to the thread and the general chatter, but I hate to break it to you, I don't watch CNN, the nightly news or read the newspaper because I don't believe those guys. I get my information from Time Magazine, The Daily Show, NPR, and PBS; rightly or wrongly.

Plus at the end of the day my opinion is my opinion because I don't live in Arizona, and they can do what ever they wants to do. It's their state.

Edited by ChiTown_Huck, 06 May 2010 - 11:26 PM.

[Prizetek]

ChiTown_Huck, on 06 May 2010 - 11:25 PM, said:

they do jobs that no white man would do, at least without complaining a ton about having to do it.

What an ignorant, bigoted statement.

And BTW, I don't really GAF if the illegal Mexicans you work with walk on water and cure cancer. They are illegal and should get the fuck out of my country.

And finally, maybe you shouldn't open your yap and spread a big fat lie about "shaking people down based on their looks" if you are going to continue to be too fucking lazy and stupid to become informed. We are all better off when "don't-really-know-and-don't-give-a-fuck-about-it-either" folks like you listen, rather than talk.

[ChiTown_Huck]

Prizetek, on 07 May 2010 - 07:12 AM, said:

What an ignorant, bigoted statement.

And BTW, I don't really GAF if the illegal Mexicans you work with walk on water and cure cancer. They are illegal and should get the fuck out of my country.

And finally, maybe you shouldn't open your yap and spread a big fat lie about "shaking people down based on their looks" if you are going to continue to be too fucking lazy and stupid to become informed. We are all better off when "don't-really-know-and-don't-give-a-fuck-about-it-either" folks like you listen, rather than talk.

You can call my statement what you want, but it's true. You tell me how many of your friends would be willing to pick produce to live. You? I am sure there is no dirt under your nails.

Let's see if I can make this simpler for you. If a man wants to work he will work. If companies wouldn't hire illegals, they wouldn't be here getting jobs. Companies like fat profits, so they hire the cheapest labor possible. Make the companies accountable, and the illegals would not be able to get jobs. They would get hungry and go home.

I am glad they expressly forbid racial profiling because we all know that the police would never do that. You aren't that naive are you?

Edited by ChiTown_Huck, 07 May 2010 - 09:08 AM.

[reflex]

ChiTown_Huck, on 07 May 2010 - 08:47 AM, said:

Yada yada yada. I am glad they expressly forbid racial profiling because we all know that the police would never do that. You aren't that naive are you?

OK lets just go with this "racial profiling" The state is being over run with illegal's from Mexico and Central America so who should law enforcement look for? A 6' tall blond haired blue eyed person? or possible a dark skinned, dark haired, Spanish speaking person?

And this statement you make

Quote

I work with a lot of contractors, and the majority of the crews have become Mexican crews. I assume they are legal; however, who knows. That being said, the Mexicans I have worked with are hard working, family oriented people, and they do jobs that no white man would do, at least without complaining a ton about having to do it. I have watched these guys wash out concrete pump pipes in the middle of winter without complaint. Chip out more concrete without question. I promise you there are not taking away jobs from Americans. In general, they are doing the lowest tiered jobs for the lowest wages, and the corporations don't mind it. In my opinion you do not deserve a job just because you are indigenous. Those who want to work will find a job to do, even if they think it is beneath them...at least that is what I would do to feed my family.

So you telling me that the jobs the "Mexicans" (by the way that IS racial profiling) do are only jobs that no white man would do? So what happened before the "Mexicans" arrived? I'm guessing you have been doing what ever it is for quite a few years so who did the jobs then? Were they just not being done?

Also your telling me NONE of the jobs that a being done by the "Mexicans" a "white man" would do? What you going to do when one of these hard working, family oriented people come for your job and are willing to work harder and CHEAPER then you? Will you be good with that?

[ChiTown_Huck]

reflex, on 07 May 2010 - 09:24 AM, said:

OK lets just go with this "racial profiling" The state is being over run with illegal's from Mexico and Central America so who should law enforcement look for? A 6' tall blond haired blue eyed person? or possible a dark skinned, dark haired, Spanish speaking person?

Read my edited post. Make companies be responsible for hiring only legal Americans. Take away one of the reasons for coming here. And if you want to find illegals then go to where they are working. They will all be in one place.

reflex, on 07 May 2010 - 09:24 AM, said:

So you telling me that the jobs the "Mexicans" (by the way that IS racial profiling) do are only jobs that no white man would do? So what happened before the "Mexicans" arrived? I'm guessing you have been doing what ever it is for quite a few years so who did the jobs then? Were they just not being done?

It's they way it has always been in this country. A group of immigrants come to American and do whatever it takes to make a living. They slowly work their way up economically and then someone else comes along to do those lower tiered jobs.

reflex, on 07 May 2010 - 09:24 AM, said:

Also your telling me NONE of the jobs that a being done by the "Mexicans" a "white man" would do? What you going to do when one of these hard working, family oriented people come for your job and are willing to work harder and CHEAPER then you? Will you be good with that?

I am sure that is not the only jobs the illegals do, but they are doing the lowest tiered jobs. I would doubt that illegals are working on Wall Street.

I deserve a job based only on my merits and my willingness to work hard. If I don't work hard, I should get replaced. I am fortunately in a field where cheaper is not better, but I know plenty of friends who had to decide if they wanted to take a pay cut to keep their job.

To be clear, I am not in favor of allowing them to free load off the system. I think they should have to be in the system paying into the system. I also believe in a flat tax, so they would actually have to pay some taxes.

[Max Power]

[reflex]

Maybe where you are the illegals are taking all "the jobs that no white man would do" but here in California they are taking all the body shop and mechanical jobs and we aren't talking minimum wage jobs but jobs that make 50K to 75K a year and more.
It is so bad here that all the Anglo office staff that I dealt with at the shops have been let go to hire bilingual employees. Now tell me what other group has immigrated to this country and would not learn the language?
I'm 1/2 Mexican and I can't stand it so I guess I'm a "Pocho" or at least a Gabachos since I don't speak Spanish!

[ChiTown_Huck]

reflex, on 07 May 2010 - 11:09 AM, said:

Maybe where you are the illegals are taking all "the jobs that no white man would do" but here in California they are taking all the body shop and mechanical jobs and we aren't talking minimum wage jobs but jobs that make 50K to 75K a year and more.
It is so bad here that all the Anglo office staff that I dealt with at the shops have been let go to hire bilingual employees. Now tell me what other group has immigrated to this country and would not learn the language?
I'm 1/2 Mexican and I can't stand it so I guess I'm a "Pocho" or at least a Gabachos since I don't speak Spanish!

I am definitely speaking from a Chicago perspective. I am curious how they are taking those jobs? Are they taking less pay? Is it because there are enough other immigrants that they are catering to them?

You have no arguments from me about the language thing. They should learn it. There are some buildings in downtown Chicago that have signs in Polish for the maintenance and engineering staff. Most are bilingual, but there are older Polish people I have encountered that never learned the language.

[reflex]

ChiTown_Huck, on 07 May 2010 - 01:31 PM, said:

I am definitely speaking from a Chicago perspective. I am curious how they are taking those jobs? Are they taking less pay? Is it because there are enough other immigrants that they are catering to them?

It appears to have started with them taking less pay and probably still are getting less pay. And once shop owners realizes they aren't going give them problems with unemployment, workers comp, vacations, ect. they become the employee of choice.
I'm in complete agreement that if they arrested the shop owners when they make a sweep this would all end.

Quote

You have no arguments from me about the language thing. They should learn it. There are some buildings in downtown Chicago that have signs in Polish for the maintenance and engineering staff. Most are bilingual, but there are older Polish people I have encountered that never learned the language.

That is to be expected from a person 65 and older they are pretty set in their ways. You see that a lot here and at CF
But when you come in contact with a person that is in their 40's and has been here 15 to 20 years and can't converse in English or you go to traffic court and see big rig drivers that need an interpreter that is a major problem.

The one thing that stands out in The Valley is there is a very large Armenian population and these guys get here and within a couple years they are speaking English and Spanish, maybe not the best but they are learning and assimilating into America.

[Yossarian]

ChiTown_Huck, on 07 May 2010 - 08:47 AM, said:

You can call my statement what you want, but it's true. You tell me how many of your friends would be willing to pick produce to live. You? I am sure there is no dirt under your nails.

Funny you should mention that.

I grew up in an agricultural area. I picked apples in high school and put myself through college working summers on a fruit ranch, so I know exactly what you are talking about.

When I was in grade school, all the area high schools took a week off in October so that the kids could help with the apple harvest. As the illegals slowly came in and took over, doing the job for less money, that practice stopped. By the time I was in high school, I had to BEG to get a picking job, and I only got that because the grower was a family friend.

How many of my friends were willing to pick produce? Almost all of them, but they were squeezed out by illegals. That was 20 years ago, and it's just gotten worse since then.

Like PP said, it's better if people like you who refuse to become informed just stay silent.

[ChiTown_Huck]

I also spent a summers picking apples and detasseling corn, so I am not completely ignorant on this topic. That being said, how much blame do you place on the farmers who decided to hire the illegals? I know their profit margins are small, so I can see why they would want to maximize their profits and maybe actually make some money for their work. However, they made the decisions to break the law and hire illegals. It's just as much their fault as it is the illegals.

[atrich]

ChiTown_Huck, on 06 May 2010 - 11:25 PM, said:

I'll speak from what I know up here in Chicago. Now I don't know what jobs Mexicans are taking away from good hard working Americans in your city, but here there are not a bunch of Americans lining up to mow lawns or work at McDonalds around here. Those jobs do not pay enough and are beneath most Americans. Hell, those jobs are beneath most teenagers around here.
I work with a lot of contractors, and the majority of the crews have become Mexican crews. I assume they are legal; however, who knows. That being said, the Mexicans I have worked with are hard working, family oriented people, and they do jobs that no white man would do, at least without complaining a ton about having to do it. I have watched these guys wash out concrete pump pipes in the middle of winter without complaint. Chip out more concrete without question. I promise you there are not taking away jobs from Americans. In general, they are doing the lowest tiered jobs for the lowest wages, and the corporations don't mind it. In my opinion you do not deserve a job just because you are indigenous. Those who want to work will find a job to do, even if they think it is beneath them...at least that is what I would do to feed my family.

No I didn't read the law. I was more responding to the thread and the general chatter, but I hate to break it to you, I don't watch CNN, the nightly news or read the newspaper because I don't believe those guys. I get my information from Time Magazine, The Daily Show, NPR, and PBS; rightly or wrongly.

Plus at the end of the day my opinion is my opinion because I don't live in Arizona, and they can do what ever they wants to do. It's their state.

The pro-illegals lobby, and apologists for illegals in general, have been pimping this idiotic notion for years. And, amazingly, it has caught on with too many undereducated Americans. It is a basic precept of a free enterprise system that wages will rise where a labor shortage exists. If illegals were not here to do certain jobs, then the overall compensation -- including wages,benefits, working conditions, etc. -- would necessarily rise.

Yes, some blame lies with employers, but that's beside the point. The only point that matters is that these people have absolutely NO right to be in this country. Get them out, and the work that they're currently doing will be performed by Americans -- for more money.

[ChiTown_Huck]

atrich, on 09 May 2010 - 11:29 AM, said:

The pro-illegals lobby, and apologists for illegals in general, have been pimping this idiotic notion for years. And, amazingly, it has caught on with too many undereducated Americans. It is a basic precept of a free enterprise system that wages will rise where a labor shortage exists. If illegals were not here to do certain jobs, then the overall compensation -- including wages,benefits, working conditions, etc. -- would necessarily rise.

Yes, some blame lies with employers, but that's beside the point. The only point that matters is that these people have absolutely NO right to be in this country. Get them out, and the work that they're currently doing will be performed by Americans -- for more money.

Let me try this again without the inflammatory comments. Sorry for being a jagoff Ken.

I do not believe illegals should be in this country working and sponging off the system. I believe that a better way to control this would be to put the responsibility on the employer to only hire legal citizens rather than building walls and trying to catch individuals. Companies like Tyson chicken want all the benefits of low wages and no benefits without any of the responsibility. They don't want to see the situation change. Put the onus on them to comply and stop the demand for the services that illegals provide. Plus, it seems to me that it would be less effort and more efficient to check at the company level rather than individual level. We do live in a free market system that rewards profit, though, so this is an inevitable outcome.

However I do understand why illegals would want to be here. I would guess most of us would do whatever it takes to feed our family. They are hungry and willing to work hard. This country has been built on the backs of immigrants. That is how the railroads and cities got built. Its how swamps in New Orleans got cleared. The difference I think is that those generations of people were more willing to integrate into America and proud to be Americans; although, there are pockets of every sort of nationality throughout most of the big cities in the Country that celebrate that particular nationality. Additionally, they should learn the language, and the local communities should not have to bear the cost of bilingual government or schools.

There are a lot of jobs, many times hard jobs, that need to be done at a low wage. It should be at a wage that allows a company or farmer to be profitable while also allowing a person to have the ability to make a living wage. That usually doesn't happen though. I think that the standard of living for most Americans has risen to the point where they do not want to do menial labor and cannot support their lifestyle even if they wanted to. If that is not the case, there is another group of Americans that would rather do nothing and get paid rather than work hard to make a living. That is another argument all together. Therefore someone needs to do those jobs. Right now it is illegal immigrants. Again, I just think having an avenue for people who want to work hard within the system, pay their way, and earn their citizenship makes sense.

[Yossarian]

ChiTown_Huck, on 09 May 2010 - 09:14 AM, said:

I also spent a summers picking apples and detasseling corn, so I am not completely ignorant on this topic. That being said, how much blame do you place on the farmers who decided to hire the illegals? I know their profit margins are small, so I can see why they would want to maximize their profits and maybe actually make some money for their work. However, they made the decisions to break the law and hire illegals. It's just as much their fault as it is the illegals.

I put quite a bit of the blame on the employers. Like I said, it became impossible to even get one of those jobs unless you knew somebody.

But that's not what you were arguing. You asked how many people I knew who were willing to do those jobs, clearly implying that if not for the illegals, those jobs wouldn't get done.

That's just not true.

Back to the basic point of this thread, the Arizona law makes is harder to be an illegal. If your argument is that they should target the employers, guess what - they already did, a few years ago when they imposed harsh sanctions on employers hiring illegals.

You seem to want to excuse the illegals by claiming that no one would do the jobs otherwise, or blaming the employers. The first is just wrong and the second is already being done, so other than that, what possible problem do have with the new Arizona law?

[ChiTown_Huck]

I am not excusing illegals. You are missing my point slightly, or I am not conveying it properly. Read what I wrote. Agree or disagree, either way is fine. I am not going to change your mind. We could keep going round and round, but I think this has played out enough.

[Rooster]

You tell me how many of your friends would be willing to pick produce to live

If that's what I have to do to NOT be a scum-sucking burden on my fellow hard working citizens, back up the wagon, I got a load of Napa cabbages ready to go.
You're capable of work, guess what? You work. The Welfare train has made its last stop in Lazy Town.

Illegal alien and Welfare problems solved.

[Max Power]

Probably Huck should have said "How many Americans will pick fruit for what the beaners will?" and he's right.

So, we pay Americans a living wage top pick fruit and a head of lettuce becomes $10 instead of $2. In the end, what difference will it make? The higher cost of goods will negate the gains.

[strayvector]

Saw this comment on Yahoo today. Perhaps a little simplified, but the point is there.

Quote

JOE LEGAL vs. JOSE ILLEGAL

You have two families: "Joe Legal" and "Jose Illegal".
Both families have two parents, two children, and live in California
Joe Legal works in construction, has a Social Security Number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.
Jose Illegal also works in construction, has NO Social Security Number, and gets paid $15.00 cash "under the table".
Ready? Now pay attention....
Joe Legal: $25.00 per hour x 40 hours = $1000.00 per week, or $52,000.00
Per year. Now take 30% away for state and federal tax; Joe Legal now has
$31,231.00.
Jose Illegal: $15.00 per hour x 40 hours = $600.00 per week, or
$31,200.00 per year. Jose Illegal pays no taxes. Jose Illegal now has
$31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays medical and dental insurance with limited coverage for
His family at $600.00 per month, or $7,200.00 per year. Joe Legal now
Has $24,031.00.
Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and
Local clinics at a cost of $0.00 per year. Jose Illegal still has
$31,200.00.
Joe Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or
Welfare. Joe Legal pays $500.00 per month for food, or $6,000.00 per
Year. Joe Legal now has $18,031.00.
Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps
And welfare. Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays rent of $1,200.00 per month, or $14,400.00 per year. Joe
Legal now has $9,631.00.
Jose Illegal receives a $500.00 per month federal rent subsidy. Jose
Illegal pays out that $500.00 per month, or $6,000.00 per year. Jose
Illegal
Still has $ 31,200.00.
Joe Legal pays $200.00 per month, or $2,400.00 for insurance. Joe Legal
Now has $7,231.00.
Jose Illegal says, "We don't need no stinkin' insurance!" and still has
$31,200..00.
Joe Legal has to make his $7,231.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline,
Etc.
Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200.00 stretch to pay utilities,
Gasoline, and what he sends out of the country every month.
Joe Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after
Work.
Jose Illegal has nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.
Joe Legal's and Jose Illegal's children both attend the same school. Joe
Legal pays for his children's lunches while Jose Illegal's children get
A government sponsored lunch. Jose Illegal's children have an after
School ESL program. Joe Legal's children go home.
Joe Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services,
But Joe paid for them and Jose did not pay.